Date: Thursday, May 19, 1994 3:46am /Temple From: dagarth Msg#: 68632 To: Archangel Re: "Vulgarity" (1 reply) (Reply to #68332) A ³ Whoa, hold on! I said (or MEANT to say) that some religons believe that. A ³ Not I, I know that Jesus did indeed drink wine during the last supper A ³ and therefore when we use Wine and not grape juice we are accurately A ³ reaccounting it... A ³ Some churches flame us for doing this... That *is* one thing that I have never been able to get physical proof of....does the wine *really* transmutate into the Blood of Christ when drank in Communion? Or does it and the bread, stay the same, chemically speaking, as when they were in the coffers? I have some other "queries" for the Catholic church: 1) Why do you folks have so many "Saints"? Isn't the granting of Sainthood, a priveledge reserved for, oh I don't know,...God? And why have so MANY of them? I mean, there are Saints for about every little thing that goes on in daily life...heck, there's even a Saint (N)onstop, (Q)uit, or [C]ontinue?of Trees!!! Heh heh... doesn't God, in the ten commandments tell us to have no other Gods before Him? If it does, why do people pray to these Saints, BEFORE they pray to God himself? 2) Also, as a subpoint to 1), don't those little figurines of these "saints" constitute idol worship when you pray to them? 3) Why is Mary considered anything other than the human mother of Christ? Granted, she was prolly a good woman 4) Why should I tell some "priest" every little thing I have done wrong? And what agency has made him knowledgeable in how much "punishment" it takes to alleviate my sins? If I recall, the Bible tells us that all it takes is ONE sin to keep us from Heaven... how can I be SURE that he didn't miscount and tell me 25 Hail Mary's when what was needed was really 26? Does that mean that that one sin is still on my "record"? Doesn't the Bible tell us that CHRIST Himself is our High Priest? If so, what need have we for a mere man as priest? Dagarth I'll stop here for now, to let ya answer.... good luck --- þ JABBER v1.1 þ Even my mouse has big balls (R)eply, (E)mail reply, follow (T)hread, (P)revious or [N]ext message? t Thread (F)orward, (B)ackward, or to (P)arent (? for help): f Date: Thursday, May 19, 1994 7:30am /Temple From: Wired Child Msg#: 68842 To: dagarth Re: "Vulgarity" (1 reply) (Reply to #68630, Reply to #68330) > But if you are referring to anile attempts to justify Christians > using "curse words"..... go fish. "...ggggooooooOOOOOOO FISH!" -- Cheer of Christians for Team Jesus on Spirit Day. wC anile? is that a word? (R)eply, (E)mail reply, follow (T)hread, (P)revious or [N]ext message? t Thread (F)orward, (B)ackward, or to (P)arent (? for help): f Date: Thursday, May 19, 1994 12:45pm /Temple From: dagarth Msg#: 68868 To: Wired Child Re: "Vulgarity" (Reply to #68842) > anile? is that a word? Anile: Of or resembling a doddering old woman. Dagarth yes, its a word. * JABBER v1.1 * "Dyslexic Christian sells soul to Santa" ...News at 11 (R)eply, (E)mail reply, follow (T)hread, (P)revious or [N]ext message? t Thread (F)orward, (B)ackward, or to (P)arent (? for help): f Date: Friday, May 20, 1994 8:30pm /Temple From: Blue Devil Msg#: 69560 To: DAGARTH Re: "Vulgarity" (1 reply) (Reply to #68631) DA³A ³ 2 more give by JEsus in the New Testament ³A ³ 11. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your ³A ³ mind with all your soul ³A ³ 12. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. DA³ Ahhh, ok. Now I see where yer getting 12. Yes, those two ³*could* be considered 2 additional commandments, but if we did, what ³about all the others? For example,...oh I don't know, maybe, "You ³shall not tempt the Lord, your God", or "Suffer the little children ³to come unto Me", or "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God, ³that which is God's"... the list goes on.... shall we add these also ³to the "Commandments"? You have to bear in mind, that when someone ³is speaking of the commandments, they are referring to the ³traditional TEN commandments, given in Exodus 20. (N)onstop, (Q)uit, or [C]ontinue?I dunno, Christ specifically said he was giving two COMMANDMENTS when he said the lines at the top. I don't have an Online Bible Search program so I can't give you word for word. I personally like his two a LOT better than the Old Testament version. I mean, a little later on in the OT we see laws telling us to crush people's testicles and slay adulterous women and all kinds of nasty stuff... --- þ SLMR 2.1 þ Ekky-Ekky-Ekky P'Tang! ZOOOOOP-Boing! Ni! Ni! (R)eply, (E)mail reply, follow (T)hread, (P)revious or [N]ext message? t f Thread (F)orward, (B)ackward, or to (P)arent (? for help): (N)onstop, (Q)uit, or [C]ontinue? Date: Friday, May 20, 1994 8:30pm /Temple From: Blue Devil Msg#: 69561 To: DAGARTH Re: "Vulgarity" (1 reply) (Reply to #68632) DA³ That *is* one thing that I have never been able to get ³physical proof of....does the wine *really* transmutate into the ³Blood of Christ when drank in Communion? Or does it and the bread, ³stay the same, chemically speaking, as when they were in the coffers? It's a symbolic thang. The Church itself is the true Body of Christ. DA³ I have some other "queries" for the Catholic church: ³1) Why do you folks have so many "Saints"? Isn't the granting of ³Sainthood, a priveledge reserved for, oh I don't know,...God? And ³why have so MANY of them? I mean, there are Saints for about every ³little thing that goes on in daily life...heck, there's even a Saint ³of Trees!!! Heh heh... doesn't God, in the ten commandments ³tell us to have no other Gods before Him? If it does, why do people ³pray to these Saints, BEFORE they pray to God himself? (N)onstop, (Q)uit, or [C]ontinue? Reverence ain't worship. The Saints are not gods or deities, merely people to be reverenced and honored. God goes last because he is the Big Cheese. When you work your way up the receiving line at the White House, you don't start with Bill and Hill... ³2) Also, as a subpoint to 1), don't those little figurines of these ³"saints" constitute idol worship when you pray to them? Again, honoring someone does not consitute worship. Catholics believe in such things as Angels, Miracles, and divine intervention. Praying to Mary for help is not the same thing as praying to Nub-Shiggurath. Mary works for the Big G. When you pray to her, you're praying to him. ³3) Why is Mary considered anything other than the human mother of ³Christ? Granted, she was prolly a good woman Mary was chosen by God to bear his Son. She raised Christ and was (N)onstop, (Q)uit, or [C]ontinue?chosen because of her innocence and purity. As such, she is revered and thought to have a an "in" with the #1 dude... ³4) Why should I tell some "priest" every little thing I have done ³wrong? And what agency has made him knowledgeable in how much ³"punishment" it takes to alleviate my sins? If I recall, the Bible ³tells us that all it takes is ONE sin to keep us from Heaven... how ³can I be SURE that he didn't miscount and tell me 25 Hail Mary's ³when what was needed was really 26? Does that mean that that one ³sin is still on my "record"? Doesn't the Bible tell us that CHRIST ³Himself is our High Priest? If so, what need have we for a mere man ³as priest? The priest doesn't forgive you, nor do the Hail Marys. They are only material signs of an inner reconciliation and the forgiveness of God. The actual number is irrelevant, and chosen by the priest as best he knows to AID you in gaining forgiveness. ***** AGAIN, NOT MY BELIEF, BUT SOMEONE HAS TO STICK UP FOR THE CATS *** --- þ SLMR 2.1 þ ...and through the wire we push our tailor-made speeches (R)eply, (E)mail reply, follow (T)hread, (P)revious or [N]ext message? t Thread (F)orward, (B)ackward, or to (P)arent (? for help): f Date: Saturday, May 21, 1994 4:36pm /Temple From: dagarth Msg#: 69773 To: Blue Devil Re: "Vulgarity" (1 reply) (Reply to #69561) BD ³ It's a symbolic thang. The Church itself is the true Body of Chr *I* know that, but I've heard that Catholics believe that it does really become the body adn blood of Christ in communion. BD ³ Reverence ain't worship. The Saints are not gods or deities, mer BD ³ people to be reverenced and honored. God goes last because he is BD ³ Big Cheese. When you work your way up the receiving line at the BD ³ White House, you don't start with Bill and Hill... If we are to merely "revere and honor" them, why pray to them? Isn't prayer something that GOd has said we should only give Him? BD ³ Again, honoring someone does not consitute worship. Catholics be (N)onstop, (Q)uit, or [C]ontinue?BD ³ in such things as Angels, Miracles, and divine intervention. Pra BD ³ to Mary for help is not the same thing as praying to Nub-Shiggura BD ³ Mary works for the Big G. When you pray to her, you're praying t I believe in such things as Angels, Miracles, and Divine Intervention, but yet, I don't PRAY to these "saints". I *do* pray to God, through Jesus Christ - which is what the Bible teaches. Show me in the Bible where it says we SHOULD pray to "saints". BD ³ Mary was chosen by God to bear his Son. She raised Christ and wa BD ³ chosen because of her innocence and purity. As such, she is reve BD ³ and thought to have a an "in" with the #1 dude... Ah, I see.... so instead of going to our "Father", we are suppossed to weadle favors outta Grandma, eh? "Please Get Dad to give me this, Granny!!!" BD ³ The priest doesn't forgive you, nor do the Hail Marys. They are BD ³ material signs of an inner reconciliation and the forgiveness of BD ³ The actual number is irrelevant, and chosen by the priest as best BD ³ he knows to AID you in gaining forgiveness. But the Bible TELLS us what we need to do to gain forgiveness when we sin... sincerely repent of the sin, and ASK God to forgive you. That's it. The only "material signs" the Bible tells us we are to express, are our testimonies. "It is not by works, but by the grace of God..." BD ³ ***** AGAIN, NOT MY BELIEF, BUT SOMEONE HAS TO STICK UP FOR THE C Why can't they? Dagarth --- þ JABBER v1.1 þ No sir, I don't like it!! (R)eply, (E)mail reply, follow (T)hread, (P)revious or [N]ext message? t Thread (F)orward, (B)ackward, or to (P)arent (? for help): f Date: Saturday, May 21, 1994 4:36pm /Temple From: dagarth Msg#: 69774 To: Blue Devil Re: "Vulgarity" (1 reply) (Reply to #69560) BD ³ I dunno, Christ specifically said he was giving two COMMANDMENTS BD ³ he said the lines at the top. I don't have an Online Bible Searc BD ³ program so I can't give you word for word. I personally like BD ³ his two a LOT better than the Old Testament version. I mean, a BD ³ little later on in the OT we see laws telling us to crush people' BD ³ testicles and slay adulterous women and all kinds of nasty stuff. Actually, Christ told us that those two were to REPLACE the previous ten. Crush peoples' testes??? Heh heh...i musta missed that aprt, please let me know where you found that, so that I may read it.... Dagarth --- (N)onstop, (Q)uit, or [C]ontinue? þ JABBER v1.1 þ My wallet's cache is disabled. (R)eply, (E)mail reply, follow (T)hread, (P)revious or [N]ext message? t Thread (F)orward, (B)ackward, or to (P)arent (? for help): f Date: Saturday, May 21, 1994 10:08pm /Temple From: Blue Devil Msg#: 69868 To: dagarth Re: "Vulgarity" (1 reply) (Reply to #69773, Reply to #69561) DA>BD ³ Reverence ain't worship. The Saints are not gods or deities, mer DA>BD ³ people to be reverenced and honored. God goes last because he is DA>BD ³ Big Cheese. When you work your way up the receiving line at the DA>BD ³ White House, you don't start with Bill and Hill... DA> If we are to merely "revere and honor" them, why pray to DA>them? Isn't prayer something that GOd has said we should only give DA>Him? Not at all. If you believe that those you revere as well as loved ones that have passed away are in heaven, then why not talk to them? God acts through many servants, not the least of them good souls... DA>BD ³ Mary was chosen by God to bear his Son. She raised Christ and wa DA>BD ³ chosen because of her innocence and purity. As such, she is reve (N)onstop, (Q)uit, or [C]ontinue?DA>BD ³ and thought to have a an "in" with the #1 dude... DA> Ah, I see.... so instead of going to our "Father", we are DA>suppossed to weadle favors outta Grandma, eh? "Please Get Dad to DA>give me this, Granny!!!" So you don't have any problem going to Sonny-Boy, but you do have one going to the Big Momma? There are many different idealogies about what prayer is and what it accomplishes. It sounds to me like you are more interested in splitting hairs than seriously discussing the Catholic's beliefs in this matter... DA>BD ³ The priest doesn't forgive you, nor do the Hail Marys. They are DA>BD ³ material signs of an inner reconciliation and the forgiveness of DA>BD ³ The actual number is irrelevant, and chosen by the priest as best DA>BD ³ he knows to AID you in gaining forgiveness. DA> But the Bible TELLS us what we need to do to gain forgiveness DA>when we sin... sincerely repent of the sin, and ASK God to forgive DA>you. That's it. The only "material signs" the Bible tells us we DA>are to express, are our testimonies. "It is not by works, but by DA>the grace of God..." Exactly. However, the method by which you ASK God to forgive you is not agreed upon by all Christian faiths. Just as YOU don't think it's okay to pray in any way but directly to God him/herself, the Cats don't think it's okay to seek forgiveness except through a priest. AAIN, NOT MY BELIEF, BUT SOMEONE HAS TO STICK UP FOR THE CATS DA> Why can't they? Not a lot of Monsignors logging on here. Basically, the tone of your post struck me as demeaning of the faith rather than representing a sincere desire to learn more about it or debate its tenets. I share MANY of your reservations, but intolerance no matter how subtle and clever is still intolerance... (R)eply, (E)mail reply, follow (T)hread, (P)revious or [N]ext message? t Thread (F)orward, (B)ackward, or to (P)arent (? for help): f Date: Monday, May 23, 1994 2:50am /Temple From: dagarth Msg#: 70216 To: Blue Devil Re: "Vulgarity" (2 replies) (Reply to #69868) BD ³ Not at all. If you believe that those you revere as well as love BD ³ that have passed away are in heaven, then why not talk to them? BD ³ acts through many servants, not the least of them good souls... Are you referring to speaking with the dead? It is a practice condemned by the Bible. Take a look at Deuteronomy 18:9-11. If you are referring to praying to those we have known but are dead, then read Revelations 22:8-9. In this passage, we find John, who, after witnessing all the great and terrible things that take place in Revelations, falls to the feet of the angel who showed him these sights, and starts to worship the angel. The angel rebukes John, and tells him to not worship him, but instead, to worship GOD. Prayer is a form of worship. We are not to worship anyone BUT God. BD ³ So you don't have any problem going to Sonny-Boy, but you do have (N)onstop, (Q)uit, or [C]ontinue?BD ³ going to the Big Momma? Yes, that is exaclty correct. There was never anything "divine" about Mary. Jesus is one of the Trinity, and therefore, God. Like I said before, I have NO problem with prayer directed to God. BD ³ prayer is and what it accomplishes. It sounds to me like you are BD ³ interested in splitting hairs than seriously discussing the Catho BD ³ beliefs in this matter... But I am discussing Catholic beliefs. I am pointing our MY viewpoints, and presenting WHY I believe the way I do about them, and you are filling in for the Catholics. BD ³ Exactly. However, the method by which you ASK God to forgive you BD ³ not agreed upon by all Christian faiths. Just as YOU don't think BD ³ okay to pray in any way but directly to God him/herself, the Cats BD ³ think it's okay to seek forgiveness except through a priest. I understand that. I am merely asking WHY they belive that. SO far, all you have done is accuse me of splitting hairs and not being serious about these issues. If you can't answer the WHY, no problem, say so. This forum IS here for religious discussions, correct? Well, I am bringing up a point of the Catholic religion, and asking ANYONE to tell me why they belive that way, while at the same time, explaining WHY *I* feel the way I do about the selfsame point. BD ³ Not a lot of Monsignors logging on here. Basically, the tone of BD ³ post struck me as demeaning of the faith rather than representing BD ³ sincere desire to learn more about it or debate its tenets. I sh And basically, the tone of this last post of your has struck ME as an attempt to start a battle about this subject. BD ³ MANY of your reservations, but intolerance no matter how subtle a BD ³ clever is still intolerance... Very true.... I'll remember that the next time I am getting flamed for my beliefs - BUT in the meantime, how's about we get back to the ISSUE, and starting finding some answers to my questions? Or is that not the purpose of this forum? Intolerance is NOT what you have seen here, Blue Devil, intolerance is making black people sit at the rear of the bus...what you have seen here, is merely my views being expressed, while asking for a reason that the Catholics are correct. If you are going to throw around such accusations, be sure that you are correct, and not merely reading the posts as flames. Dagarth --- þ JABBER v1.1 þ Jesus saves! He only takes half damage from the fireball! (R)eply, (E)mail reply, follow (T)hread, (P)revious or [N]ext message? t Thread (F)orward, (B)ackward, or to (P)arent (? for help): f Date: Monday, May 23, 1994 6:31pm /Temple From: Blue Devil Msg#: 70459 To: dagarth Re: "Vulgarity" (Reply to #70216, Reply to #69868) DA>BD ³ Exactly. However, the method by which you ASK God to forgive you DA>BD ³ not agreed upon by all Christian faiths. Just as YOU don't think DA>BD ³ okay to pray in any way but directly to God him/herself, the Cats DA>BD ³ think it's okay to seek forgiveness except through a priest. DA> I understand that. I am merely asking WHY they belive that. DA>SO far, all you have done is accuse me of splitting hairs and not DA>being serious about these issues. If you can't answer the WHY, no DA>problem, say so. This forum IS here for religious discussions, DA>correct? Well, I am bringing up a point of the Catholic religion, DA>and asking ANYONE to tell me why they belive that way, while at the DA>same time, explaining WHY *I* feel the way I do about the selfsame DA>point. That's what you appear to be doing now. I challenge anyone else here to (N)onstop, (Q)uit, or [C]ontinue?go back and read that first post you left and see if they think it was an innocent inquiry into the Catholic faith. If you really think all I have done is "split hairs", then I don't see any reason to continue. I have given a LOT of information, showing the Catholic view of reverence vs. worship, why they have saints, why Mary is considered special, what their view of communion is. I wasn't being entirely dead serious because (1) your first post was pretty tongue-in-cheek and (2) I happen to think the Catholics are pretty whacked, too. DA>BD ³ Not a lot of Monsignors logging on here. Basically, the tone of DA>BD ³ post struck me as demeaning of the faith rather than representing DA>BD ³ sincere desire to learn more about it or debate its tenets. I sh DA> And basically, the tone of this last post of your has struck DA>ME as an attempt to start a battle about this subject. Sha. That's me, Defender of the Catholics. No, I thought maybe, just maybe, if I tried to actually ANSWER your questions you might try to discuss the answers instead of attacking what I said... DA>BD ³ MANY of your reservations, but intolerance no matter how subtle a DA>BD ³ clever is still intolerance... DA> Very true.... I'll remember that the next time I am getting DA>flamed for my beliefs - BUT in the meantime, how's about we get back DA>to the ISSUE, and starting finding some answers to my questions? Or DA>is that not the purpose of this forum? DA> Intolerance is NOT what you have seen here, Blue Devil, DA>intolerance is making black people sit at the rear of the busexample>...what you have seen here, is merely my views being DA>expressed, while asking for a reason that the Catholics are correct. DA> If you are going to throw around such accusations, be sure that you DA>are correct, and not merely reading the posts as flames. No, black people were made to sit at the rear of the bus because of racist views that they were inhuman and inferior, not because they were not tolerated. I do not accuse lightly, and I think most people on here will agree that you walk around with a chip on your shoulder about your religious beliefs. Your last message about the dead and about priests was well-thought-out and tolerant. The others weren't. If you really started this discussion with a heartfelt and innocent inquiry about the Catholic faith, then I apologize. However, if YOU are going to throw around words like Intolerance and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, I'd suggest you be sure that you are correct as well. Intolerance doesn't have to involve mistreating people or calling them heritics. Intolerance starts when you begin to think that because a group of people don't share your opinions or faith that their beliefs and thoughts don't count, that they can be written off and laughed at. Intolerance starts when you attack their faith instead of trying sincerely to understand why they believe what they believe. Intolerance starts when you consider people as labels and not thinking, caring, hurting beings... (R)eply, (E)mail reply, follow (T)hread, (P)revious or [N]ext message? t Thread (F)orward, (B)ackward, or to (P)arent (? for help): f You have reached the end of this thread. Enter N for the next message in your original sequence (before you started threading), or X to exit. 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